Scenario Reffing : Spies : how to deal with them

[thumper]

this is a pretty hot topic -- especially over on mcb - there are a few on there who dont know much about scenario ball, and this post kind of assumes you do.
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right now we have around 10 contributors helping part together a scenario reffing manual - being assembled on pbjunkie - but contributed to across the regional forums.

If someone could offer some replacement text for steers slicing throats comments Ill be glad to incorporate something a bit nicer. Odgers summed it up pretty well below..


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Originally Posted by thumper

Scenario Reffing : Spies : how to deal with them
By Steers - Team Section8 with contributions as noted.
1.21.2007

One of the greatest tragedies in scenario paintball might be when a player has created a masterpiece in which he/she is walking among the enemy and planning to disrupt and/or eliminate important targets and the referee rats them out.

Spies are a unique aspect of the game and in many ways helps the referees understand just what one player is capable of doing. Being a spy doesn’t necessarily mean that you are allowed to wear enemy tape and hold an enemy card. In the game, especially night, one player can wreak havoc with mission teams and base security and so much depends on the cooperation and trust with refs.

Things to remember at a scenario with or without spies:

1. As the ref, you have been placed higher than the player, that is, to judge and monitor. You are expected to be friendly but mainly to be professional. This entails you not allowing any player to hear your radio chatter or giving them hints that would lead to points being taken or given on any one side. Have you ever heard of a judge telling a contestant how to win? Of course not, that is cheating and so is this.

2. At times, it is necessary for you to act quickly. When the player approaches a ref and informs him of his/her intentions, the ref must take great care in what he/she does at that point. Talking on radios risks a new ref from shooting his mouth off and not paying attention could cause the plan to fail. For example: when a player intends to barrel tag several players by slowly working up a line, as the ref, you must work quickly and diligently by removing dead players from the line. In most cases, the player will say something to compromise the player and the plan will fail.

** Dead men don't talk **

3. Plain and simple, if you rat out a player because you are a base ref or referee working closely with any one side, you have cheated and cannot handle the responsibility that you have been given. I personally believe that points should be awarded in these instances. If the player is doing an effective job, then let him/her do it and later congratulate them for their work. If the enemy player is ignorant, then that is their down fall and you as the ref MUST let them learn the lesson. Unless they ask about the rules, you are not to instruct in the process of their demise.

Obviously, if you hear of a player getting ready to do something sneaky, be quiet about it and do not spread the word. The only thing that player needs is for you to act at the opportune moment and allow him/her to do what they came to do. In most cases, you are grim reaper and it is your job to silence players and get them out before the others know what it going on. In real life, if the spy was cutting throats one by one, could any of his victims scream out? No, so be sure to silence them.

Brian Odgers adds: "As a ref, during night games I'd often be a mission ref. Something I would do when I was on a mission, is tuck my chem light into my shirt hiding it from view. Nothing will attract players like a ref just sitting in some strange place for no apparent reason. I think the refs should try to treat the players as they would like to be treated. Radio turned down, no noise, limited lights... If a firefight started I'd pull the Chem light out so folks could see I was a ref..."

Traakon adds: "There is a reason why being a good scenario spy is difficult, just as in real life, everyone suspects and the smallest flaw turns you out and that flaw should be the players not the officials."

Mstrtal adds : "If a player comes up to you at night with a question or concern please do NOT shine your flashlight on them. Whether they are in or out becomes mote at this point. You shine a lite on them and you give their position away to every single player in line of site."

[thumper]

Originally Posted by KTOninjaSNIPER

.. obviously steers was a spy again and sounds like he had 1 bad incident so now hes goin to lash out at every scenario ref.

The boy is learning the ropes to be sure - one of the key lessons he has had to learned the hard way is to not exceed the ref's abilities to comprehend the situation. The manual being parted together by the players and refs is to provide a good foundation for the scenario refs.

If yall want to contribute - just hop in.

At present the topics include:

First: rules are going to change from place to place - producer to producer - so this guide should be prefaced "unless otherwise directed"...
************ TABLE OF CONTENTS *************

[THUMPER] Scenario games : What are they, and how are they different from big games, mass games

[GRENDEL] Referee : Definition, Types & Associated Responsibilites :

[THUMPER] Customers : Who are the customers and how should they be treated? :

[THUMPER] Field Preparations : what items should be addressed on the playing field that the refs may want to tend to in the weeks leading up to an event. (theme prep, ground hornets, bees, wasps, snakes, nails, boundaries, objectives, bases, doglegs, chronies, floors, dead trees, briars, garbage, trash containers, stump holes, fire extinguishers, burn barrels, open fires, fire wood, camping, parking, first aid kits, first responders, on-field transport, medical emergency plan, radios, flash lights, cylume sticks, hole punches, water coolers, atv's, air horns, bull horns, stage, signs, chrony calibrations, communications plan)

Medical Emergency Plan : examples, nearby hospitals, known first responders, fastest routes, atvs, doctors/players, emt players, first aid kits, legal requirements.

Reffing Plan : examples, rotations, player-refs, etc, water and food, lights.

Zone reffing : examples, when appropriate, rotating refs, etc. :

Mission refs, base refs and roaming refs, when appropriate, rotating refs, etc :

[STEERS] 1 week before the game :

[STEERS] 1 day before the game :

[SCPaintballer01] 1 hour before the game :

[SCPaintballer01]15 minutes before the game :

Game On :


[Mr. GQ] Spawns - Reinsertions - Medics :

[Mr. GQ] Paint Checks - the right way (drive bys to full standing neutral body checks)


[Mr. GQ] Bunkering and Drive bys : the novice vs ubergat, novice lock-up, the planned mutual.

[gfgjester] Overshooting : how to handle, safety, when play becomes assault

Boundaries : how to handle accidents and intentional stuff. common confusions.

Bases : under attack -- base sacks -- with base spawns -- the Ref lead neutral group insertion.

[gfgjester] Friends and Teammates : my friends who are playing -- how to handle

[STEERS] Spies : how to deal with them

Clever Players : and how to deal with them

Grey Areas - oh my : when is grey grey, and when grey becomes black. Grendel on "intentions"

Head Reffing 101 -

The Safety Briefing : printed rules, getting players to attend, stragglers, noise, bull horns.

Base Reffing 101 (chrono, spawns, novice guidance, heat signs, sacks, issuing missions, TIME!!!!, clean, exact Game starts, handy items to have handy)

Mission Reffing 101 (TIME, pushy players, clever players, spies on mission)

The Roaming Ref 101 (Paintchecks, heat, when things go to far, escallation, de-escallating, time-out and do-overs, chroney copping)

Scoring Missions : - when, how and what... and when exactly does a mission start...!

Radios : - do's and dont's

[General_Otto] Laws, Tanks, Satchel Charges and Grenades :

Artillery, Air Strikes, Nukes and Bio Weapons :

Helicopters & Recon Planes :

Night play :

Heat & Adrenaline : problems on the horizon --

Mouthy players : how to handle

Drunk and/or Wasted Players : : what to look for, and how to handle

Fights : stop before it starts, lighten up, sportsmanship, allied next event, escallation, cops.

101 Common Cheats : what to look for, and how to handle (Deadman's walk, short cut spawn, staging spawn, talking dead men, w/ radios, dropped tape, collecting props during standdown)

Common Confusing Areas : and how to handle (game start and restart signal, loose boundaries, fake props,)


--------------

[lolipop-tithead]

Originally Posted by DM5KILLA

no wonder RecBallQueen! got banned... but by the sound of things here, you are in a way posting for them, hmmm using their sn (that wich was banned) too hope this doesnt get you banned, cause we'd really miss you


BUT BACK ON TOPIC: players are entitled to call themselves hit or out but what if a producer(or field owner) would like to change that rule about players eliminated by spies...

Dang Billy what do you do all day? search for Casey's posts? haha loser.


Grendel and others,
This manual thing that you're coming up with is interesting.

[bluemidget123]

billy and casey- you guys seriously need to cut this shit out. it's just annoying and gets on everyone's nerves. Stop all this immature bull.

As far as the reffing goes, when i've reffed at scenarios, it's hard to make the necessary calls discretely when a spy is concerned. It's all a judgement call and the players, in my opinion, have no right to tell the refs to be quiet. They can request they not give their plans away but the refs need to act how they feel necessary.

Originally Posted by bluemidget123

billy and casey- you guys seriously need to cut this shit out.

for once i did nothing this time. i posted my opinion and i was attacked by a vicious heterophobe...

i think josh hit the nail on the head tho haha.

[Grendel]

Originally Posted by bluemidget123

As far as the reffing goes, when i've reffed at scenarios, it's hard to make the necessary calls discretely when a spy is concerned. It's all a judgement call and the players, in my opinion, have no right to tell the refs to be quiet. They can request they not give their plans away but the refs need to act how they feel necessary.

You are most definitely correct. It is hard many times to make the necessary calls when involving "spies" in the game. It is the job of the Referees to make good sound judgement to ensure the safe, unbiased and unobtrusive calls are made. If it is between those three things when making a call always default to make the safety call over the other two. Next make sure your call is unbiased to the outcome of the game and third make your calls fairly and firmly but if you can keep from giving the "spy" away you should. Reffing is not always easy and sometime can be very frustrating but if you know the rules [all of the rules for the game] and you make your calls with some "common sense" it makes it a lot easier.

Eliminated players have to indicate they are out, that is undebatable. No one says you have to scream it though. You have to get that gun up, get out of cover, get that blocking device on, head off the field and you can call yourself out but I've never been anywhere where it is the rules you have to yell "I'm out" or "eliminated Player"...etc. What I've seen in the rules is if you SAY those things you are indicating you are out. If you are eliminated by someone beinging sneak, whether it is a spy or not, you have to indicate you are eliminated and get off the field but try to give they player who work so hard some courtesy of walking off without intentionally giving them away.

[thumper]

well put Grendel -- I think maybe your comments may find themselves incorporated into the section text...


also: DMmasta volunteered for a few sections in the manual...


First: rules are going to change from place to place - producer to producer - so this guide should be prefaced "unless otherwise directed"...
************ TABLE OF CONTENTS *************

[THUMPER] Scenario games : What are they, and how are they different from big games, mass games

[GRENDEL] Referee : Definition, Types & Associated Responsibilites :

[THUMPER] Customers : Who are the customers and how should they be treated? :

[THUMPER] Field Preparations : what items should be addressed on the playing field that the refs may want to tend to in the weeks leading up to an event. (theme prep, ground hornets, bees, wasps, snakes, nails, boundaries, objectives, bases, doglegs, chronies, floors, dead trees, briars, garbage, trash containers, stump holes, fire extinguishers, burn barrels, open fires, fire wood, camping, parking, first aid kits, first responders, on-field transport, medical emergency plan, radios, flash lights, cylume sticks, hole punches, water coolers, atv's, air horns, bull horns, stage, signs, chrony calibrations, communications plan)

Medical Emergency Plan : examples, nearby hospitals, known first responders, fastest routes, atvs, doctors/players, emt players, first aid kits, legal requirements.

Reffing Plan : examples, rotations, player-refs, etc, water and food, lights.

Zone reffing : examples, when appropriate, rotating refs, etc. :

Mission refs, base refs and roaming refs, when appropriate, rotating refs, etc :

[STEERS] 1 week before the game :

[STEERS] 1 day before the game :

[SCPaintballer01] 1 hour before the game :

[SCPaintballer01]15 minutes before the game :

[DMmasta]Game On :


[Mr. GQ] Spawns - Reinsertions - Medics :

[Mr. GQ] Paint Checks - the right way (drive bys to full standing neutral body checks)


[Mr. GQ] Bunkering and Drive bys : the novice vs ubergat, novice lock-up, the planned mutual.

[gfgjester] Overshooting : how to handle, safety, when play becomes assault

Boundaries : how to handle accidents and intentional stuff. common confusions.

Bases : under attack -- base sacks -- with base spawns -- the Ref lead neutral group insertion.

[gfgjester] Friends and Teammates : my friends who are playing -- how to handle

[STEERS] Spies : how to deal with them

Clever Players : and how to deal with them

Grey Areas - oh my : when is grey grey, and when grey becomes black. Grendel on "intentions"

Head Reffing 101 -

The Safety Briefing : printed rules, getting players to attend, stragglers, noise, bull horns.

Base Reffing 101 (chrono, spawns, novice guidance, heat signs, sacks, issuing missions, TIME!!!!, clean, exact Game starts, handy items to have handy)

Mission Reffing 101 (TIME, pushy players, clever players, spies on mission)

The Roaming Ref 101 (Paintchecks, heat, when things go to far, escallation, de-escallating, time-out and do-overs, chroney copping)

Scoring Missions : - when, how and what... and when exactly does a mission start...!

Radios : - do's and dont's

[General_Otto] Laws, Tanks, Satchel Charges and Grenades :

Artillery, Air Strikes, Nukes and Bio Weapons :

Helicopters & Recon Planes :

Night play :

Heat & Adrenaline : problems on the horizon --

[DMmasta] Mouthy players : how to handle

[DMmasta]Drunk and/or Wasted Players : : what to look for, and how to handle

[DMmasta]Fights : stop before it starts, lighten up, sportsmanship, allied next event, escallation, cops.

101 Common Cheats : what to look for, and how to handle (Deadman's walk, short cut spawn, staging spawn, talking dead men, w/ radios, dropped tape, collecting props during standdown)

Common Confusing Areas : and how to handle (game start and restart signal, loose boundaries, fake props,)


--------------

[thumper]

Scenario Reffing : Spies : how to deal with them
By Steers - Team Section8 with contributions as noted.
1.21.2007

One of the greatest tragedies in scenario paintball might be when a player has created a masterpiece in which he/she is walking among the enemy and planning to disrupt and/or eliminate important targets and the referee rats them out.

Spies are a unique aspect of the game and in many ways helps the referees understand just what one player is capable of doing. Being a spy doesn’t necessarily mean that you are allowed to wear enemy tape and hold an enemy card. In the game, especially night, one player can wreak havoc with mission teams and base security and so much depends on the cooperation and trust with refs.

Things to remember at a scenario with or without spies:

1. As the ref, you have been placed higher than the player, that is, to judge and monitor. You are expected to be friendly but mainly to be professional. This entails you not allowing any player to hear your radio chatter or giving them hints that would lead to points being taken or given on any one side. Have you ever heard of a judge telling a contestant how to win? Of course not, that is cheating and so is this.

2. At times, it is necessary for you to act quickly. When the player approaches a ref and informs him of his/her intentions, the ref must take great care in what he/she does at that point. Talking on radios risks a new ref from shooting his mouth off and not paying attention could cause the plan to fail. For example: when a player intends to barrel tag several players by slowly working up a line, as the ref, you must work quickly and diligently by removing eliminated players from the line. Thumper adds: "REF : BE READY - when the group discovers the player is an enemy all hell may break loose."

** Dead men don't talk **

3. Plain and simple, if you rat out a player because you are a base ref or referee working closely with any one side, you have cheated and cannot handle the responsibility that you have been given. If the player is doing an effective job, then let him/her do it and later congratulate them for their work. If the enemy player is ignorant, then that is their down fall and you as the ref MUST let them learn the lesson. Unless they ask about the rules, you are not to instruct in the process of their demise.

Obviously, if you hear of a player getting ready to do something sneaky, be cool about it and do not let on. The only thing that spy needs is for you to act at the opportune moment and allow him/her to do what they came to do.

In most cases, you are grim reaper and it is your job to silence players and get them out before the others know what it going on.

...Contributions follow...

Brian Odgers adds: "As a ref, during night games I'd often be a mission ref. Something I would do when I was on a mission, is tuck my chem light into my shirt hiding it from view. Nothing will attract players like a ref just sitting in some strange place for no apparent reason. I think the refs should try to treat the players as they would like to be treated. Radio turned down, no noise, limited lights... If a firefight started I'd pull the Chem light out so folks could see I was a ref..."

Traakon adds: "There is a reason why being a good scenario spy is difficult, just as in real life, everyone suspects and the smallest flaw turns you out and that flaw should be the players not the officials."

Mstrtal adds : "If a player comes up to you at night with a question or concern please do NOT shine your flashlight on them. Whether they are in or out becomes mote at this point. You shine a lite on them and you give their position away to every single player in line of site."

Grendel adds : "It is hard many times to make the necessary calls when involving "spies" in the game. It is the job of the Referees to make good sound judgement to ensure the safe, unbiased and unobtrusive calls are made. If it is between those three things when making a call always default to make the safety call over the other two. Next make sure your call is unbiased to the outcome of the game and third make your calls fairly and firmly but if you can keep from giving the "spy" away you should. Reffing is not always easy and sometime can be very frustrating but if you know the rules [all of the rules for the game] and you make your calls with some "common sense" it makes it a lot easier."

Grendel adds : "Eliminated players have to indicate they are out, that is undebatable. No one says you have to scream it though. You have to get that gun up, get out of cover, get that blocking device on, head off the field and you can call yourself out but I've never been anywhere where it is the rules you have to yell "I'm out" or "eliminated Player"...etc. What I've seen in the rules is if you SAY those things you are indicating you are out. If you are eliminated by someone beinging sneak, whether it is a spy or not, you have to indicate you are eliminated and get off the field but try to give they player who work so hard some courtesy of walking off without intentionally giving them away."

MCB poster adds : "A good spy knows which refs to stay away from. If the staff sucks, don't even bother being a spy."

Thumper adds :
>>Examples of spy-like tricks to look for:

*** A guy delivering a pizza to a base ref for example - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing.. pizza gets dropped near base and kablooy...(cautiously look signs that he is eliminated, or an active player i.e, visible face tape or arm band tape, visible player card -- refer to official game rules - do not give away the player when making this determination)

*** A guy with a disposable camera taking pics behind enemy lines - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing....

*** A guy is invited in at night by your base security staff because your head of security overheard a radio transmission by the base ref stating he was on your side...

*** A guy complaining he losts his car keys and wants to look in your base...lol - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing....

*** A spy wants to be non-threatening. Acting non-threatening isn't cheating - its part of the role the spy must play.

*** Once the player signals out in anyway - he is out, he must plug his marker, hold it up and get off the field, if not thats a dead mans walk.. (see dead official dead mans walk rules)

*** If the spy has a satchel charge and uses it - it's use must comply w/ satchel charge rules (i.e., possibly demo player card, card in satchel -- see official game rules)

*** If the spy is marked with blue tape, and you are base ref at blue base - and the spy blows up the blue base - there may be specific rules under which the player can legally have the blue tape - or he may be breaking the rules. It is your job to know the rules regarding this in advance.

[Bonedaddy]

most of the time i am pretty quite , i let my actions speak for themselves but i had to add my part since almost everytime i get on here ninja has something to say . there are times where the are really good points brought up and there are others where it is just CRAP...... that is my opinion . not facts just an opinion .

Originally Posted by Bonedaddy

everytime i get on here ninja has something to say ..

if this were true u make it sound like i target you. i dunno who u are even. why would i speciaifally target some1 i dont know.

i believe you have me confused w/ some1 else. i looked thru all of your posts and not 1 of them have i ever even said anything you to. you mostly post in the classifieds section. so find me an instance of where i have ever said anything to you and ill apologize. but the 1st time ive even thought about sayin something to or about you was after the fact u jumped down my back for posting my opinion about the spy situation....

since this is the case ill gladly accept your apology once you give it. i cant hold a grudge for a little mistaken identity.